(no subject)

[the_rck]

I’m poking at a fanfic for Roger Zelazny’s Amber series that requires me to figure out some completely different vocabulary and ways of approaching the characters. I want gender neutral pronouns which isn’t (or shouldn’t be) that hard. I’ve found a site that lists a lot of options. I just have no idea what baggage the different options have. I’d rather not make up my own. I may end up doing it, but I’d rather not.

The series is very, very heavily gendered, to the point that the author apparently never thought about the possibility that true shapeshifters might not automatically be either male or female. (The author doesn’t seem to have thought about the implications of shapeshifting at all. In ten books, it only turns up at points when it would look really cool and not when it would be, you know, actually useful.) It’s also complicated by the shapeshifting characters spending most of their on screen time in the company of fixed form folks who are pretty much human (just super powered and unaging and…) and fairly rigid in terms of gender roles. In interacting with them, there’s an advantage to appearing human and male. The fixed form folks also recently won a big war against the shapeshifters.

Right now, I keep banging into not having a reference for the main character from the books that doesn’t connect to the character being male. I suspect that the problem is that I read the books back in the 1980s and have had thirty years of thinking of the character as male. The character’s parents are also kind of tricky— One is fixed form, human, and male. The other parent is a shapeshifter who was in human, female form when he was conceived and may or may not have stayed in that form during the pregnancy. (And how does pregnancy work for shapeshifters? There’s a vast, biological rabbit hole I could dive down…)

Zelazny does establish that Merlin, the main character, can shapeshift, but Merlin doesn’t use the ability at all 99% of the time. I could take that as the character not being very good at it, but that’s not something that the character admits to, and the character is supposed to have grown up in an environment where shapeshifting is a survival skill (or possibly a mark of status as part of the aristocracy. That’s never fully clear).

The other thing I’m having difficulty with is how Merlin would refer to 'his' parents. Well, more to the 'mother.' The father is human and male and stuck that way. Using 'he' and 'father' for Corwin should be fine. Dara, on the other hand… 'Mother’ might still be appropriate for 'parent who gestated me,' and doing that would save me having to come up with more terminology. Except that more terminology might underline that these characters aren’t human. And Merlin definitely wouldn’t use she/her pronouns for Dara when thinking about Dara, just when talking to human relatives who know Dara that way and who might reject Merlin for not being exactly human.

Zelazny wrote first person from Merlin’s point of view. Doing that would save me from having to immediately pin down Merlin’s pronouns, but I have Merlin thinking about Dara and flashing back to conversations with Dara. That means I can’t avoid Dara’s pronouns or the question of whether or not to have Merlin call Dara mother. The questions are making it hard for me to go forward. I worry that, if I just default to Zelazny’s designations, I’ll default to Zelazny’s assumptions.

I also need to dig into what’s in canon about another character, Jasra, who presents female and may or may not be a shapeshifter. Dara specifically mentions having known Jasra but pretty much labels Jasra as servant class and not aristocracy. Jasra being or not being a shapeshifter matters because it would determine whether or not her son could be. There’s zero indication in the text that he is, but there’s also very little indication in the text that Merlin and Dara are, so… The story I’m considering changes shape considerably if Luke can shapeshift. (Luke and Merlin’s fathers were half-brothers, so Luke has the same sort of motivation to present male that Merlin does in terms of spending a lot of time interacting with human type people who treat men better than women. He also grew up with his father and mother both and might have needed to conform to his father’s expectations.)

I kind of want to work on this story right at the moment since it’s the one I think will flow best while I’ve got three kids running around, but I’m completely blocked by the questions above.

Comments

[maramcreates]

You're right in wondering about any baggage associated with some gender neutral pronoun choices (because they do exist). For the most part though, there aren't any that work for everyone.

What I suggest is: (a) different characters may have different preferences, which might mean that various types of pronouns get used depending on the character in question -- some may even prefer gendered pronouns (this might help in scenes where using the same pronouns can get confusing); (b) pick something that's easy to do a 'find and replace' with, and just start writing (this way you can go back and replace the type you chose if it turns out to be more problematic than you feel comfortable dealing with).

[the_rck]

I think that a culture of shapeshifters would likely have a single set of general use pronouns, so I kind of want to settle on one option. Well, there might be circumstantial uses of other pronoun sets... I don't know if I want to get that complicated.

I know that real people have a lot of different preferences in that regard, and the possibility of trampling on someone real is a big hesitation here. Real people always trump fiction, at least in terms of anything I might ever show anyone else. I might apply different rules to drawerfic. Might.

[maramcreates]

I understand. That's part of the reason why I suggested different preferences among the characters themselves (it would better represent real people's choices that way).

You could come up with your own set though, since we're not even talking about humans here, and the basis for the pronoun use you're considering is a lack of gender rather than a reframing of gender (assuming I understood you correctly).

[the_rck]

Yes, a lack of gender. I suspect that, if I were really going to world build, I'd want to do something with relationships between people and levels of formality determining pronoun usage.

The original impetus for this was someone asking for fluffy Merlin/Luke fic in their Fandom Stocking requests. I can't do the fluffy part, I don't think, so I'm not specifically writing for that person, but I liked the ideas that came out when I started poking at it. All of the other rabbit holes are of my own devising.

[maramcreates]

So perhaps a place-holder pronoun set, while you figure the specifics, is the way to go? You could get some of the story down in the meantime that way.

[the_rck]

Yeah. I think I need to simply pick a set to go on with and then be open to changing it later. I think that will be easier for me than keeping on using he and she when that's not how I want to think of the characters.

[the_rck]

I went through the options on that list I linked above and picked out the half dozen that I thought I'd be most comfortable working with in terms of how they look (partly in terms of telling the different parts of each list apart from each other and partly in terms on not mistaking the words for other words), how I think they might be pronounced.

At this point, I think I'm going to roll a die.

I'm going to try not to get particularly attached, though, just in case my selection turns out to have unpleasant baggage.

[maramcreates]

At this point, I think I'm going to roll a die.

That sounds like a fine plan :)

[havocthecat]

Fluffy Merlin/Luke? Well, I suppose if you travel far enough out from Amber, you can find anything...

[the_rck]

I think that's part of why I started poking at shapeshifting and gender. I started wondering how much of Merlin's fairly aggressive masculinity and heterosexuality comes from the fact that he's talking Corwin who he'd think would have certain expectations. I'm pretty sure, too, that the only people in the Courts that Merlin talks about as female are Dara and folks he admits to being attracted to.

I suppose one could write something that Merlin thought was fluffy during their time in college. It's just that Luke would be lying and manipulating Merlin the whole time.

Canonical Merlin is highly intelligent, but, um, wisdom/common sense must have been his dump stat. Merlin also... Is there any point during his set of books when he takes action with a plan in mind as opposed to just responding to whatever other people throw at him or what seems right in that moment? Which kind of makes me wonder if people in the Courts wanted him to be really, really easily led.

[melannen]

Well, "they/their" is always a possibility, although with nonhumans it can have an unintended implication that they also have a different relationship with individuality as well as with gender. (I don't remember enough about the Courts of Chaos to remember if that would be relevant....) And it's hard to find/replace if you change your mind later.

I use zie/zir as my default for nonbinary people in fiction, just because that's what I've seen other people in fandom use as a generic nonbinary pronoun most often (both in fiction and outside fiction). Interesting that it isn't on the wikipedia list at all.

And you can always just make one up that's not on anyone's list, as a pronoun just for Courts of Chaos - people who are going to be willing to read a story where most of the characters use a nonbinary pronoun are probably going to be willing to accept a novel pronoun.

[the_rck]

I mainly don't want to make up pronouns because it's the sort of thing I'm likely to spend days on. That sort of thing is worse than naming characters or stories.

[lady-of-mists.livejournal.com]

Maybe he could think of Dara as M when thinking about the character. Maybe very formal thoughts like "I saw Dara the next day. Dara said... something. What was it?" until you get to the point that you have picked your pronouns.

[hamsterwoman]

You mentioned the idea of this gender-fluid Chaosites fic when we talked about Amber before, and it's really neat! But, yeah, the pronouns are tough. Honestly, the pro-fic I've read that used coined gender-netural pronouns (Elizabeth Bear's Undertow, for example) never actually worked for me -- it just kept throwing me out of the story. Sooo, I think if you can avoid bringing in 'unusual' pronouns, that would be the better way. (Especially since we have canonical Merlin's POV, and I think changing that in his POV would be especialy odd.) The only gendered-pronoun games that have actually worked really well for me was the use of "she" for everyone regardless of physical sex in the Ancillary Justice books, and that because it's a normal English word.

I'm trying to remember what else I've seen done with gender-fluid characters. I think Desire of the Endless is referred to as "it" when a pronoun is used at all? But that's not a pronoun I feel comfortable applying to a person (same problem I have with Bujoldian "it" for the Betan hermaphrodites), so I don't think that's a great solution either. Elizabeth Bear has a non-binary character in Dust, and she manages never to use any pronouns for Mallory at all, but I imagine that's not an easy thing to pull off.

I think Mother for "parent who gestated me" is just fine (I think that's even used with Loki in Norse mythology?) And between "Mother" and "Dara", maybe you have enough variation that you don't have to use pronouns?

I kind of like the idea of shape-shifting Luke! It gives him and Merlin another sandbox to play in together, so to speak. But, yeah, I can't remember any canonical indication that he is, either, or Jasra. But, like, considering that the Amberites are descended from a unicorn, I think you could make a good case for just about anything!

[the_rck]

I think I could use the fact that canon is Merlin talking to Corwin as a Watsonian explanation for Merlin using gendered pronouns even if I go with other pronouns. Merlin has no reason to think that Corwin would accept a non-human child or a non-heterosexual child. Amber comes across as fairly conservative in those ways, at least in the Corwin books, and Corwin's narrative and what people in the Courts taught him about Amber are Merlin's starting points for understanding those folks. As long as Merlin is Corwin's son and as long as Merlin conforms to what Corwin's family expects, Merlin is in-group and a lot safer when visiting Amber or hanging out in Shadow relatively near Amber.

As to Jasra, I'm quite certain that I remember Dara telling Merlin that she had been the one to introduce Jasra and Brand, that Jasra had been one of her servants in the Courts. (This tangles the timeline, though, enough that I'm kind of iffy on the idea because Dara should come relatively late in Brand's personal timeline while Jasra implies that she, herself, came earlier.) Still, if I accept the connection between Jasra and Dara, the question then comes down to how common the ability to shapeshift is. I could probably argue in either direction.

And a shapeshifting Luke could be a lot of fun.

I really do think, from a Doylist perspective, that Zelazny mostly forgot about shapeshifting. There are a lot of points in Merlin's adventures when minor shapeshifting would have been pretty darned useful but might have broken the plot. Zelazny could have dropped in a sentence or two about why shapeshifting wouldn't work right then or about Merlin simply not being very good at it (Dara seems to think he isn't, but in that particular exchange, the implication is more that Dara thinks Merlin has been in one form so long that he's lost the skill), but he never did.

[hamsterwoman]

I think you're right about Zelazny forgetting about the shapeshifting -- or at least it being another thing that he introduced and didn't really know what to do with. The Merlin books are full of stuff that Zelazny seemed to be making up and/or dropping as he went along :P

You have a point about pronouns possibly shifting with Merlin's intended audience (but then it should probably be clear what Merlin's audience is in your story). It occurs to me that you could use "she" for Dara and just lampshade it as an intentional rather than default choice by having Merlin reflect on it or talk to someone about it? He did spend a while living among humans and doesn't seem to be *that* in touch with his Chaosite side, at least until fairly late in his pentalogy.

[the_rck]

I may end up using 'she' for Dara. I'm not sure yet. The specific bit of (very) rough draft that I'm poking at is a flashback, and using 'she' might make sense in context, but it also might not. I think the scene will read very differently, depending on how I do it. I'd have to rework it a lot to avoid pronouns altogether, but I probably could do it.

Here's the specific bit:

"I don’t know so much about dealing with your Amberite aunts," my mother told me, "but I do know a lot about the men of Amber. I know that, mostly, you’re better off if they assume you’re just like them. They respect men. They don’t respect women, not until after the woman has a knife in their guts and maybe not even then." She frowned and tapped a finger against her lips. "We’ve spent a lot of time on you being Corwin’s son because the men of Amber wouldn’t accept anything else on the throne. Just never forget— You’re not human. They will, but you must not."

I had no idea what my mother was getting at, but she obviously thought it was important.

"I had to be Benedict’s grand-daughter." She looked away, and I could tell that she was angry. "Amber will always see me as a woman, will always treat me as a woman." She looked directly at me and put her hands to either side of my face. "Always remember, they will see you as less threatening as a woman." She shook her head and let her hands drop.

"The men of Amber think only of a few things— First, gaining power. Second, revenging slights. Third—" Her lips twisted. "Third, they think about where they’re going to shove their dicks. They don’t know your appearance as a female human. Use that if you’re cornered. It might make them think you’re harmless. It might… If necessary and as a last resort, it might let you seduce one of them.

"Our house, our… handlers, thought I needed those skills, and to catch Corwin, I did. They would object to my teaching them to you, but— Seriously, fuck them. You’re the one who’ll be taking all the risks. There’s a long term price for it in terms of how the bastards will treat you later, but it may save your life."